Episode 126 – Law Will Tear U.S. Apart Again with Oona Hathaway

By Stephanie van den Bergfeature interviews, general, podcast episodes
Oona Hathaway (top) and producer Marghertia Capacci (bottom)

It has been a little over a month since Donald Trump’s inauguration as its 47th president and the United States is already – apparently – tearing up the international law rulebook. 

This episode was recorded before the February 28 meeting White Hoouse meeting where Trump clashed with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy. While Janet and Steph could not ask about the latest bombshells, there were plenty of other examples we got into to describe the U.S.’s new attitude to the old international order.

All the upheavel left us to wonder whether international law as a concept is still relevant and whether the tearing down the rules we have had about – for example – who can invade whom, will destroy the idea of the ‘rule of law’ or whether it might sharpen minds and build a new different consensus about shared values. 

To help Janet and Stef navigate the quickly changing international law landscape is Oona Hathaway, professor at Yale Law School and specifically the Gerard C. and Bernice Latrobe Smith Professor of International Law.

Oona has also served as Special Counsel at the U.S. Department of Defense and is the Executive Editor at Just Security. She wrote a great book called The Internationalists about the people working on a plan to outlaw war during the 1920s.

We also spoke about the way the International Court of Justice has become a more central court following the use of the erga omnes provision in the Genocide Convention in the Gambia versus Myanmar genocide case. And about sanctions on the International Criminal Court prosecutor Karim Khan.

Oona of course recommends her own website JustSecurity which also has its own podcast. To get away from work she watches The Great British Bake Off (which Netflix inexplicably calls the Great British Baking Show) where the worst that can happen is a cake with a soggy bottom. Steph can’t help but mention her new comfort watch The Dog House U.K. on rescue dogs finding new homes.

This podcast has been produced as part of a partnership with JusticeInfo.net, an independent website in French and English covering justice initiatives in countries dealing with serious violence. It is a media outlet of Fondation Hirondelle, based in Lausanne, Switzerland.