Disclaimer: Asymmetrical Haircuts is produced as a podcast, meaning it is meant to be listened to and not read. Because of this, we recommend that you listen to the episode while reading, because the written word does not do justice to the emotion or tone used by our speakers. However, because we recognise there might be bandwidth issues or you might be using a hearing aid, we have provided written transcripts for all our available episodes.

Mai Yaghi: 00:00  Being a woman, a female journalist in a war zone or in a conservative society like Gaza Strip, it gives women access to more stories that would be much harder for male reporters, for example, to reach.

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Narrator: 00:18  No one can act with impunity. These are crimes that are beyond the pale. We are talking about human beings, we’re not talking about numbers. We need a court, that’s as simple as that. This is Asymmetrical Haircuts, your international justice podcast with Janet Anderson and Stephanie van den Berg. All rise.

Stephanie: 00:38  Hi, Janet.

Janet: 00:39  Hi, Steph. 

Stephanie: 00:40  In June, we spoke about the struggles that women journalists face and the unique stories they managed to cover in Afghanistan, now under the Taliban.

Janet: 00:48  Yeah, in case you missed it, do check out that conversation. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Zahra Nader had so many interesting stories to tell us and perspectives on the realities of what’s going on nowadays in Afghanistan that she shared with us.

Stephanie: 01:03  But women journalists are at the forefront of many conflicts in many different countries, and each context is extremely different. So today we continue this mini-series by looking at Gaza. Officially, there is a ceasefire in place since October 2025, but Israeli attacks continue and they continue to kill people. And we also see Israeli forces encroaching more and more on Palestinian land, according to Palestinian sources. And the humanitarian situation is still very dire. 

Janet: 01:35  Yeah, I mean, I think we’re going to concentrate on the Gaza Strip, but we also know that there is much going on in the West Bank as well. But for today, to understand how women journalists in Gaza can help shed light on what has been happening, and also to explain how they have been affected by what has been happening, we have the pleasure to speak to Mai Yaghi. Hi, Mai. Welcome.

Mai Yaghi: 02:01  Hi, Janet and everyone. Hi.

Stephanie: 02:03  Mai is a Palestinian and Swedish journalist who’s worked as an AFP reporter in Gaza since 2008. In 2024, she was evacuated together with the rest of the agency’s team and their families, and she now lives in the UK. And she is joining us from what looks like a very luscious garden with wonderful shade, and we’re all extremely jealous because we’re in hot little spaces.

Janet: 02:27  So first of all, we should explain how this conversation came about. Last year, we had a pod about a documentary called Inside Gaza, and that was with the director and the producer, Hélène Lam Trong and Yann Olivier. So we’ll also put a link into that. And within that documentary, you follow together the lives and the work of four journalists working for AFP, and we should explain that’s Agence France-Presse. They’re journalists and photojournalists in Gaza. And it takes us through from the day before what happened in Gaza, so from October the 6th 2023, right the way through to after their evacuation in the spring of 2024. The protagonists in that are the bureau chief, Adel al-Zaanoun, and the photojournalists, Mohammed Abed and Mahmud Hams, and of course, the star of today’s podcast, Mai Yaghi. 

Stepahnie: 03:24  The documentary was released in 2025, and it has in the meantime racked up several honours. It won the Grand Prize and the Audience Award at the FIGRA International Documentary Film Festival. It qualified to be nominated for the Academy Awards by winning the Best International Feature Documentary Prize at the Doc Edge Film Festival in Auckland.

Janet: 03:40  Yeah, well done. All the material that was shown there was shot by the journalists themselves. So it gives you this real kind of insider look as to what life was like, what reporting work looked like during those first few months of the Israeli military response to the Hamas attack in Gaza. And of the four protagonists, as we’ve mentioned, there was only one woman, and that was Mai.

Stephanie: 04:11  Our producer Margherita saw this documentary when it was screened at the Movies That Matter festival in The Hague, and she met with Julia Hammett-Jamart. She’s an impact producer and managing director of Catalyst Films. Now, Julia connected us all together, and we’re here today thanks to her. But the impact strategy that she devised contributed very much to the wide reach that the Inside Gaza documentary had so far. So she is also joining us in this conversation today to share with us how that worked and what impact the documentary had. Hi, Julia.

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 04:47  Hi, I’m glad to be here.

Janet: 04:49  Mai, we’re really happy that you joined us today. When I saw that documentary, I had this sense that, well, to be honest, you’re the only woman there in the newsroom. I mean, how did it feel to be the woman in an essentially all-male newsroom? By the way, I’ve been through that myself as well, because in the 1980s, I was one of the very few women in my own BBC newsroom. But you tell me from your perspective, how was it?

Mai Yaghi: 05:19  Being the only woman in the newsroom was challenging even before the war, but it went to a higher level during the last war because it was entirely different. Covering wars is dangerous for any journalist, but for a woman, there is only another, another layer of hardship which remains invisible all the time. We are expected to keep working while dealing with the realities that are very specific to a woman. For example, it was a nightmare. I think I find it as a nightmare. As from my personal experience, you know, in our culture, personal hygiene is a kind of dignity and respect and privacy.

Janet: 06:13  Mai, can you give us some examples?

Mai Yaghi: 06:15  So on usual days, you would clean your toilet twice a day, but you find yourself suddenly supposed to share it with hundreds of people and to stand in a long queue of people, wondering at that time if you would find water when it’s your time to go or not. And for example, like having the period, you don’t have water, you can’t have shower. I remember when the war started, I had my first shower three weeks after the war. And yeah, I had to have my first shower, not in a bathroom or a shower, it was a toilet, and I was, I was supposed to finish it in a few minutes. And there was nothing, no shower was supposed to be from the sink. And I was like all very dirty and mud and I had no clothes, no towel, nothing at all. So it was very difficult for me. Also, for example, the privacy, there was no privacy at any level. I was hoping, I was dreaming for just a few moments to stay alone and try to find peace. It’s very hard also for me to describe it because it’s, it’s a lot and I find it very difficult to explain it in words. Also being displaced, it made a huge difference rather than the other wars.

Janet: 08:08  So, Mai, you were displaced yourself?

Mai Yaghi: 08:11  As we were displaced, we had no, no place to go. We felt homeless and in danger at the same time. And also, beside all those bad conditions, I am a mother and I had to deal with my responsibilities as a mother, like thousands of women who found themselves the head of the house because of their loss of partners, parents, husbands. So yeah, it was very, very, very bad and miserable situation for women in particular, for everyone indeed, but for women as well in particular.

Stephanie: 08:58  What I’ve noticed, and I’m sure Janet has the same experience, is that as a woman in a mostly male-dominated field, as some of the newsrooms that we worked on were in the ’90s, it also sometimes gives you a very specific example of stories that you are uniquely positioned to shed light on. And if I look at what my Reuters colleagues did from Gaza, they did a lot about fertility clinics and access to fertility clinics and neonatal clinics. And were there specific stories that you remember from your time in Gaza that really kind of came from you and from this woman’s perspective of, I am struggling with this and the kind of men around me don’t see it, but it is a good story?

Mai Yaghi: 09:47  I totally agree that being a woman, a female journalist in a war zone or in a conservative society like Gaza Strip, it gives women access to more stories that would be much harder for male reporters, for example, to reach. Because women usually would be more comfortable to share their experience or to talk to women. Women in my country hesitated talking about breastfeeding or period or pregnancy or like sensitive topics with a male reporter. While they would talk to me, they would be very open to share it with a female reporter. But I also believe that we female journalists, we have a different perspective of journalism as we naturally pay attention to the details that might otherwise be overlooked, like the emotional cost of the war, the impact on families, the human situation, the women, the children, the human side of everything, not only the field escalation and the bombing and the violence and everything. There is an impact for the war, which I believe that we female journalists focus and could see it more clear than other male journalists.

Janet: 11:25  Is there an example of a particular story that you did, Mai, during this period where you were aware that essentially because of your gender you got an access?

Mai Yaghi: 11:41  Indeed, I had many, many stories about women, about the hygiene, for example, about the pregnant, the pregnant women, about the newborn children, about breastfeeding and the lack of milk, baby milk, about being displaced, about how women cope every day, how do they manage to every day of the war. I was sharing them the suffer, actually, to be honest. I was sharing them everything. I feel their suffer because I also have it and I feel responsible of sharing this and reporting this to the world so that the world doesn’t only hear news about how many people are killed. It’s not about numbers, it’s about a human being, it’s about lives, it’s about what did this war change to two million people. The impact is the most important message that I was trying to share with the world.

Janet: 12:47  Julia, while Mai was speaking there, there were tremendous nods of head from you, which obviously the audience can’t see, but I had this sense from you that you’re really appreciated the telling of stories of real people. Is that what you recognised when you were promoting this documentary? I mean, apart from this story of how difficult it was to do journalism in this, was it also the way that journalists kind of transcend that that thing and turn, you know, numbers into human beings? Was that part of what it was about for you?

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 13:27  Well, why I was nodding like that? Because [laughter] because I was present when Mai spoke at a panel at UNESCO about women reporting on war. And I was very moved. And also, I was with her in Vienna at the International Press Institute World Congress, where she also spoke with women reporters about reporting on war and what’s specific about that. And at the time, she was talking about the tendency of her male colleagues to be interested in what politicians are doing, what they’re saying, what the numbers are, the systemic issues. And one of the things that came up is a question, I think perhaps it was from the audience, Mai, I can’t remember, but about have we described war? And, and there was that insight that no, we haven’t, because what’s missing is precisely what Mai is describing: the human cost of war. And that’s where the importance of women reporters comes to the fore, all that Mai was saying. And something you didn’t mention, Mai, was your work,you know, that you positioned yourself at the hospital.

Janet: 14:41  Oh, so Mai, can you tell us more about your positioning at the hospital and how that worked?

Mai Yaghi: 14:48  When the war erupted, I was, I only had my son with me, as my husband, my daughter had left Gaza before the war, and my mother and a brother and a sister of mine. So everyone was almost left before the war. So I was with my son, my sister-in-law and my three nieces and nephews. So one week after the war, we were asked or requested to leave Gaza to the south of Gaza Strip, to Rafah and the south of Gaza Strip. And at that time, it was massive and huge and we had no idea about what is going on and everything. And we thought that we would be leaving Gaza to Cairo or something. And we also had to work and to keep reporting. So the only place which we could work from was Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis city, south of Gaza Strip. So I had to stay there and it wasn’t, it wasn’t safe. It wasn’t safe anywhere, but it wasn’t, staying at a hospital, seeing the bodies and the injuries and the pieces of body isn’t a good place for my son to stay with me. So I had to leave him with my sister-in-law, who was also caring, taking care of three children at Rafah. It was, I had to stay there like for 40 days. I was visiting him between time to a time until I eventually had the decision that I have to go for him because he had, he really panicked at one day because he lost contact with me at least for 10 hours because of the disconnection of the communication. So I felt very guilty and I had to go to join him or to stay with him at Rafah later. But during that time at the hospital in Khan Younis, I’ve witnessed and I’ve seen a huge number of stories of people, of injuries, of orphans, of widows, of people screaming for loss, panic. The more people trying to know their family’s members, someone who recognised a body from a ring, for example. I remember one woman who recognised her daughter from her nails.

Janet: 17:33  It sounds extraordinarily traumatic to have to report on all of that.

Mai Yaghi: 17:38  Like, it was continuous, 24/7, non-stopping. And we, we’re witnessing this, we’re seeing this, and we’re reporting and we’re thinking of our families. And our families outside is worried about us and we don’t have any answers. I, we have no answers. We, ourselves, we understand nothing. We only realise that we are in zero distance of death. We pray. Everyone is concerned about the relatives, the beloved ones. We don’t have time to grieve, for example, of our losses. We keep hearing news about losing colleagues, friends, family members, relatives, brothers. And we’re supposed to contain this and to keep working and to take care of our lives and of our families. So yeah, it was a nightmare, to be honest. It was a nightmare.

Stephanie: 18:49  It must also be very complicated to be both a journalist, who is used to trying to report on something, and be personally involved in it. You cannot, it’s very hard to separate those two identities, but you get asked to do it all day when you work for one of those big news agencies, so.

Mai Yaghi: 19:10  Yes, Steph, I agree. But you know what? It’s also different. I’ve covered five wars, including the last one. But it’s totally different for me covering the four previous wars than this. Because even though I had been displaced sometimes from my house, because it’s close, for example, to the border in the north or extra, but I was displaced. I used to get myself out of my house and to go, for example, to a better place or a safe place, according to my opinion. I had made a decision to do this. And I chose where to stay. And it was a good condition environment for my family and for myself to stay. And I was working and I knew that this war will end and I will go back to my work, to my life, to my ordinary life. But this war was totally different because I was forced to be evacuated. I had no place to stay. And I was in continuous danger. I was forced for everything. And I had nothing to do with this war. I am only a human. I am only a journalist. So it’s totally different. My life is totally different before this war and after it. I am, I am one of the luckiest, to be honest, to be here in London and to be evacuated from the war zone and to be, to live in London now. And that I had a Swedish citizenship. But I’m telling you, I wish, I wish I’m not here and I wish I’m back to Gaza and I wish that this had never happened. So this is, this is my opinion while I am one of the luckiest. And while I am someone who just lived five months of the war, while people still there suffering, journalists still their targeted every day. And that makes the dilemma, like I feel very lucky, but I feel very guilty as well. So it’s a struggle and a challenge, which is not easy, which I don’t want to spend my life, the rest of my life, trying to have the balance and resilience for the emotions of something. I had nothing, I had no choice about it. I was forced to.

Janet: 21:56  Talking about the targeting of journalists, and it’s been extraordinary for me from the outside to see how many journalists have died during that war. Margherita got the figure from the International Federation of Journalists, say at least 241 Palestinian journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza since October 2023. And your office, the AFP office itself, was bombed quite early on. But Julia, the fact of that happening to those journalists, you based your impact campaign around that as well. I mean that, that kind of, so it became more than the human story, it became the story of the reality of what’s going on still for media workers in Gaza, even though some people have managed to leave, like Mai.

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 22:57  Yeah, I might just step back to say what the role of an impact producer is, just because there are a lot of people who don’t understand that. So I’m not the producer of the film, that’s Yann Olivier, Hélène Lam Trong directed it. But very early on, so an impact producer works with the team to try to ensure that the messages, the important messages carried by a film translate into real change. So that it’s not just a film that goes to festivals and gets applauded, but that it results in real change. Now, Yann, the producer, who is also a journalist at AFP from the outset, was really concerned and sure that this, this film could contribute to a raising of public awareness and to an improved public debate around the threats to journalists. And so he brought me on in October 2024, when the film was still being shot, actually. And we talked about what he wanted to do with this film. And he was very clear from the outset that his aim was not to widen the divide that existed in society in October ‘24 about the conflict. This was a film about the targeting of journalists and the implications for global democracy of what was happening to his colleagues in Gaza. And with those things in mind, the fact that we were not seeking to divide, but seeking to federate people around the important messages carried by the film, and that this was a film about the attacks on journalism, we set to identify some clear messaging. And what we thought was important was to stick to facts. For instance, the fact that access to information is a human right, Article 19 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and that the functioning of democracy depends upon access to reliable information. And so from that, naturally, you can say, therefore, a threat to journalists is a threat to global democracy. So rendering that apparent, so that was one lot of messaging. The second lot was something that we can all agree upon, a fact: journalism is not a crime. Killing journalists is a crime. Therefore, international law must be upheld, and there must be an end to impunity for the targeting of journalists, for crimes against journalists. So setting that as the context in which we were going to work was really important at the outset, because it meant that we were dealing with facts, incontestable facts, around which we could federate the public.

Stephanie: 25:44  I wanted to ask, Mai, maybe if you had something to add. Was it for you the first time that you felt that you were being targeted also as a journalist specifically?

Mai Yaghi: 25:58  From the very first day of the war, Israel was targeting journalists. And it was massive. They targeted AFP office. When they did target AFP office, it was like a sign for us. We knew from the beginning that we are all targeted, because it was massive and it could reach anyone. And they were targeting at journalist after another and their families. We ourselves, the journalists, we felt targeted, but also the community and the society, the people, also felt that Israel is targeting journalists. And that had created another challenge, because people were also scared of us, of journalists. I think that Israel was intentionally targeting journalists. Me and all of my AFP colleagues, all of our houses were bombed and destroyed. Our office was targeted. We were banned of travelling because we were journalists. We felt targeted every minute and we had no protection at all. And Israel was clear about it, that they don’t, they don’t, they are not responsible for our lives as an AFP team in Gaza. They said it clearly. We felt helpless. We felt left out. Like every time I step out for a mission to cover a strike or to do a story, every time I would think that I might not come back. I was very much prepared for this, very much prepared, you know, to be killed. And at some point, you know, I felt like it would be much better to die than living what we are living at that time.

Janet: 28:15  You’re not only a journalist, Mai, you’re also, you know, you’re part of a family, you’re in charge of a family. So you had a real range of responsibilities, I assume, while you were in Gaza. I’m wondering, though, whether as a woman, there were more expectations on you to, you need to look after your family now, whereas the male journalists would be expected to, you know, disappear and to, you know, not worry about their families because somebody else would deal with all of that. Was that also part of what made it so difficult?

Mai Yaghi: 28:51  To be honest, even for my male journalists Janet, they found themselves in a situation that, where they, they need to take care of things that they wouldn’t before, like taking care of food, water and a shelter, a place, a safe place. For my personal experience, yeah, I felt very, I felt overwhelmed. I found myself responsible for my son, for my 10-years-old son, and my two nieces and nephew and their mother, because as my brother was away, had travelled before the war, and she was stuck alone, and she was taking care of my son when I was away. So when we moved, we had to evacuate. We evacuated. We have been evacuated together. But I had to wash my clothes by hand. I had to cook, to set fire, to make bread, to many things that I didn’t experience myself in real life. I have never, for example, any washed clothes. I definitely have a washing machine. I have an oven. And you’re doing all of the stuff while you are scared. There’s bombing everywhere. You hear the bombing and you preparing food and you are trying to calm, and orient, to support the children around you. And you have to report at the same time. And you’re concerned about your hygiene, about diseases. I had myself some rash in my skin because of lack of hygiene. You have to do an effort for every single thing in life. And it’s massive. So yeah, it was, it was completely, completely different than any other war in Gaza or in the world. And there’s one more important note that I need to, to add. At this, in this war, there were a complete closure of the borders. No one was allowed to go out or in. In the previous war, there was at least a border would be open and people would leave. We are stuck in a place. There’s no escape of death. And you know this, you realise it. You know, death is around you and you can’t escape. So you have nothing but to prepare yourself. And at some point, you’re in survival mode. Your brain is only functioning on survival mode. I need water. I need to eat. I need to sleep sometimes, but I can’t sleep because I can’t, because of the voices, the explosions, because of the fear, because there is no place to sleep. As I slept many times on the streets, in my car, everywhere. Yeah, so the blockade and the closure of the borders also made a huge difference in this war.

Stephanie: 32:18  I can imagine. Thank you so much for sharing that. Julia, we mentioned at the start that the documentary has won many prizes and you also spoke about your work as an impact producer of trying to get real practical changes implemented. And we were wondering, can you share, is it too soon to say that the documentary has had a real-life impact, or can you share some things where you think that the documentary really made this difference?

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 32:47  That’s a good question because it’s been just six months since the film was first released in its country of origin, being France. So it screened on Arte France in December 2025. Moreover, the film did not have a commercial theatrical release, which means it was not commercially released in cinemas. So the only place people could see it without an impact campaign was on television, on Arte. So I think we can say with confidence we’ve had an impact because despite those limitations, we’ve actually, through the impact campaign, taken the film to 17 different countries. So it’s screened in 17 different countries with panels and Q&As afterwards and reached over 300,000 people through the impact campaign. And that figure of 300,000 people excludes those who tuned in to watch it on Arte TV or other broadcasters. So yes, in terms of reach, we’ve had an impact, but I think any true evaluation of impact really depends upon the degree to which we’ve met the objectives we set for ourselves. Because as I said, it’s about bringing about change in the real world. And those objectives, once again, were to build credibility about the work of field journalists amongst the population generally, to promote solidarity amongst the journalistic profession and to advocate for access and security. And so all the actions, all the impact initiatives we designed were in order to achieve those objectives. 

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 34:23  And perhaps a more pertinent way to illustrate the impact we’re having would be just through a few specific examples. I’ll draw upon a couple. At the Festival for War Reporters in Bayeux, Normandy, we screened the film to a public of 1,200 people under a big, it was actually a beautiful evening under a big circus top in Normandy. It screened on three screens simultaneously to a public of 1,200 people, the majority of whom were journalists from all around the world who had come to be there for this Festival of War Reporters. The protagonists of the film were all present and the screening was followed by a panel, a round-table discussion with our impact partner, Reporters Without Borders, where the issues were unpacked with a view to making transparent, making visible to those present the issues raised by the protagonists of the film. So in terms of promoting solidarity, this was an extraordinary moment. And I recorded a 10-minute standing ovation from the public. And it wasn’t about just an appreciation of the film, it was about an appreciation for the work of those journalists that had taken place. And so it was a very clear achievement or accomplishment of that objective. 

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 35:56  Something else that happened that festival, and that’s the other example I want to give, is that we organised outreach with the local schools. So high school students who were studying media were provided with an opportunity to meet the protagonists, the journalists in the film. And the activity that took place was that these media students conducted a radio programme and interviewed the protagonists of the film. So the tables were turned, the journalists were interviewed. And the specific anecdote I want to give was really beautiful. I was circulating in the room at the time of the recording of this radio programme. And I noticed that there was one girl doing what I thought was doodling. She was just drawing away. And I thought, oh, well, she’s disengaged. So we’re really not managing to engage her in what we’re trying to do. And I felt a slight moment of disappointment. And I was thinking, you know, what can we do to try and to get her to engage with these issues that the journalists are raising? And then at the end, the students had a chance to come up and speak with the journalists freely. And this girl who had been doing what I thought was doodling approached Adel al-Zaanoun and Mahmud Hams with her notebook and showed them what she had done. And it was a beautiful drawing of what a court reporter might do, an illustration of the journalist bearing witness in that particular context. So you could see the young student with her headphone on interviewing the journalist who had their headphones on and the mic. And, you know, actually, I was, i was bouleversée, we say in French. I was really deeply moved by that moment because I thought now the impact campaign has gone over and above my expectations, where the students had themselves really appropriated what we brought to them and made it their own. And I knew that we had ticked that box in terms of building credibility.

Stephanie: 38:13  Now, as a journalist, I know you never like to be the subject of news yourself. So how was it for you when they decided to make this Inside Gaza documentary?

Mai Yaghi: 38:24  Thanks. I want to add one thing about Inside Gaza. For me, the film, in the beginning, when we were told about the film, I’m not that kind of person who likes to be on camera or to be on the spot. So I was, I didn’t want to participate. But later on, when I did, I did this because of Hélène, the director. And later on, I’ve met Julia and Yann, of course. I’m very glad to know them, and their desire and their will to talk about our suffering made me accept and feel more responsible to take part in the, in the film because I saw how excited and how interested they are to talk about the Palestinian journalists and journalists in Gaza. So I was encouraged by their energy to take part in the film. But also, it was a very, it’s like a very kind gesture and sign for us that, that we’re not left alone and that the world and colleagues in particular are concerned and curious and they want to share, to share something. And the last point that I need to say, that this film, I think, had a very good impact. And I myself had witnessed this with people in several panels and extra. But this film might had presented only 10% of the suffering that we had ourselves, taking in consideration that we are one of the luckiest of journalists in Gaza. So it shows something, but it gives a sign for more for more to come.

Janet: 40:25  Mai and Julia, at the end of the podcast, we always ask a series of small questions. And the first one is particularly to you, Mai. Is there anything that you wanted to have time to say, that you wanted to say to our audience, that you didn’t get a chance to say yet?

Mai Yaghi: 40:41  I think I just want people to know that journalists in Gaza are also human. Journalists in Gaza are still suffering and are still under fire and still reporting under a very complicated humanitarian and political situation. So there is no like specific demand, but more awareness, more support for those heroes who are still on the ground, reporting no matter of the situation and no matter of that tens of them, 260 at least, 260 journalists were killed in this war.

Stephanie: 41:33  It’s good also for our listeners, the problem with these ceasefire things is then it kind of drops out of the news, but the situation indeed is still very dire and there are no journalists kind of allowed in Gaza still. And so we, in a very deliberate effort, I think, which makes it incredibly hard to get kind of stories out of what’s happening there, which is, which seems a very deliberate effort because if you don’t know what’s going on, you can’t get worried or upset about it and you can’t do anything, where you can keep saying that, oh, we don’t quite know, we can’t validate this reporting. Well, if you take away the means for news organisations to validate it, then you can keep a kind of putting a doubt on the reports that are coming out from that region, and that is very concerning trend, I feel.

Janet: 42:26  I was going to ask Julia that, are you finding that, you know, Gaza essentially is so low down the list of priorities for people now that it becomes, because there isn’t reporting coming on from there on a daily basis, that it’s more difficult to get people engaged, or are you still managing to get the engagement that you want?

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 42:48  I think people are very concerned and engaged. I think it’s our leaders who are not acting now, and that’s the challenge. The other issue is to find the financial support to put in place the sorts of initiatives that can keep journalists safe and reporting from there. Hélène Lam Trong has been involved with an NGO delivering online training to young journalists in Gaza. And I guess, you know, if in terms of that sort of last question, I think that Mahmud Hams, one of the journalists in the film, said, no belligerent likes the presence of journalists because they denounce their crimes. Those who target journalists do so deliberately to hide the truth from the world. And I think that if we can appreciate the gravity of this situation, not just in Gaza, but for us all, then it will lead to a greater engagement. This concerns us all. A threat to our access to reliable information is a threat to us and our existence.

Stephanie: 43:59  Well, you are preaching to the choir here with all journalists, but even us journalists who are now kind of here reporting on things from our nice basements should know how difficult it is for our colleagues on the ground in these extremely complicated conflict zones. And that is an important thing.

Mai Yaghi: 44:19  Yeah. Can you believe many of my colleagues, many of them are living in tents. They lost their houses and they live in tents. I’m talking to them in daily pace and I get myself speechless of their resilience and of their courage. I can’t imagine myself reporting and living in a tent in this hot summer, for example.

Stephanie: 44:46  So that reminds me a bit of these morning calls. You know, when you have a big news agency, you have a morning roundup call where all the journalists call in. And during the Gaza war, when we would go through the stories with the colleagues, we realised, or I realised listening to those calls, that for Gaza, the concern was not only, you know, where can we get to? Do we have access? Do we have a gas to go somewhere? But also there’s not enough food and the journalists on the ground are not getting much to eat. So they cannot plan in three stories because they realistically only have energy to do one thing and then they need to rest because there was the famine in Gaza, and that also affected the journalists. And that is really a kind of something that brought home under the extreme conditions that my colleagues were working at the time.

Mai Yaghi: 45:38  You reminded me actually, our morning calls during the war, we used to meet on the roof of the building, Adel, Hams, everyone, all, all of my colleagues, every day in the morning, like 6 a.m., maximum, maximum 7 a.m., 6 a.m. probably. And we check the food, the water for the kids, the needs of the kids. Some children need diapers and this family, they need the medicine, for example. And we have those daily tasks. Everyone is responsible of providing something or doing something. And then we go to the morning working shift. We, like, have two morning calls, one for ourselves, how to cope with that situation, and other how to work. So yeah, you reminded me of, I have the scene in front of me, was talking about, oh, so no, we don’t want to eat this. We need, we need some vegetables. We need some fruits. We need to give juice to the children. So yeah, those discussions all the time, unbelievable.

Stephanie: 46:50  And you’re still reporting on Gaza. How is that going?

Mai Yaghi: 46:54  Yeah, I still work on Gaza and still reporting, and I’m doing my job, the same tasks and everything. So I am, I feel most of the time that I’m still in Gaza, and somehow, because I’m in contact with people in Gaza all the time. I know it’s like I’m kind of living with them, but it’s a challenge, but it’s also part of responsibility as well because I must be in a better condition than my colleagues who are on the ground and who are still in Gaza.

Janet: 47:31  And our very final question to both of you, which may feel completely irrelevant, but just in case you can help with this, we always ask our guests if there is anything that you are reading at the moment or listening to, or have been watching, that you think would be worth recommending to our audience. And of course it can be something completely connected to Gaza, maybe something from, you know, historical writing that you think might be useful for people, or something that you’ve been looking at more recently, or it can be whatever you use to get away from the current. We have had recommendations connected to vampires and anything but curving, just to get you out of this business of war crimes. Mai, is there anything that you would like to suggest to our audience, either escape or in Gaza?

Mai Yaghi: 48:33  I’m proud of a new young man from Gaza, a singer who’s called Saint Levant. I’m very proud of the music he represents. And I think I ask people to look him as an example of what Gaza have. We have lots of talents and people who love life. I find peace in his music and his message to the world. It’s a message of peace from Gaza, which is still under the war.

Janet: 49:10  Thank you, Mai. And Julia?

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 49:12  I love that, Mai. We send each other WhatsApp messages. And, you know, as I was thinking through what book, actually I was recalling the WhatsApp messages that Mai and I send each other. And what I always send is pictures of nature. And that’s what connects Mai and I because in the wilderness, we find restoration and hope, not in humans, but in the wilderness, in nature. And we’re really connected on that. And we were having a conversation in London just over the weekend about the need to hold on to hope because that’s the light that guides us. And if we don’t hang on to that, we give up. So yeah, nature.

Mai Yaghi: 49:59  Yes, haven’t you, Julia? That’s why I’m sitting in the garden for you, for all of you.

Janet: 50:06  Mai, thank you very much for making the time to talk to us today from your beautiful garden with the sound of children running around in some kind of a playground behind you as well. It’s primary school, just over the road, I imagine. So it’s just, it gives a very nice sense to hear you, hear you there. And we appreciate very much you taking the time. And thank you, Julia, as well.

Mai Yaghi: 50:31  Thank you very much, Janet and Steph. And thank you, Julia. I’m really happy to be here. Thank you for having me here and to give me the chance to speak about my personal experience and about journalists in Gaza. Thank you very much.

Julia Hammett-Jamart: 50:49  Thank you.

[OUTRO MUSIC]

This was Asymmetrical Haircuts, your international justice podcast, created and presented by Janet Anderson and Stephanie van den Berg, in partnership with The Hague Humanity Hub. Music is by audionautix.com. You can find show notes and everything about the podcast on asymmetricalhaircuts.com. This show is available on every major podcast service, so please subscribe, give us a rating and spread the word.

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